General F/A-XX thread

[disconnectedradical]

The Navy’s next large surface warship program – now known as DDG(X) – might not be ready for a contract award until Fiscal Year 2030. The Navy’s Next Generation Air Dominance program will start acquisition in the late 2020s and will enter service in the 2030s. The so-called “pathfinder” program for NGAD development is the MQ-25A Stingray aerial tanker that will replace F/A-18F Super Hornet fighters as tankers after the Stingrays reach initial operational capability.

“We are on a path right now with MQ-25 on our aircraft carriers to go IOC in 2025. That is a significant capability in terms of extending the lethality of the wing, freeing up jets that would typically be used – strike fighters – to refuel and to turn that back to their original missions,” Gilday said during the Surface Navy Association’s annual symposium. “That, for us, is the pathfinder for Next-Generation Air Dominance. And that is a phased program through the late 2020s, into the 2030s, that we need to deliver for the sixth-generation manned and unmanned aircraft.”

Source: https://news.usni.org/2023/01/18/cno-gi ... -destroyer

[Corsair1963]

F/A-XX Future Navy Fighter’s Big Funding Points To Prototypes

Documents show the cost of the Navy’s F/A-XX program increasingly yearly, with projected funding of over $9 billion for the next five years.
BY JOSEPH TREVITHICK - UPDATED MAR 27, 2023 7:41 PM EDT

The U.S. Navy plans to request more than $9 billion in funding for its Next Generation Fighter aircraft, or F/A-XX, over the next five fiscal years. This, together with other details from the service's latest budget request for the 2024 Fiscal Year, may point to possible plans to acquire prototypes of its next-generation stealth combat jet design, or at least get closer to doing so, before the end of the decade. Of course, it's very possible that early developmental demonstrator test articles have already flown.

The Navy has now released more detailed budget documents that outline its spending plans for the F/A-XX effort between Fiscal Years 2024 and 2028. The service had previously announced that its latest proposed budget includes a request for nearly $1.53 billion in funding for this program.


The full current proposed budget outlay for F/A-XX for the next five years is as follows:

Fiscal Year 2024: $1.528 Billion
Fiscal Year 2025: $2.205 Billion
Fiscal Year 2026: $2.634 Billion
Fiscal Year 2027: $2.682 Billion
Fiscal Year 2028: $2.735 Billion

These figures add up to just over $9.104 billion. To put the size of this number in perspective, the Navy is looking to secure around $11.849 billion between Fiscal Year 2024 and Fiscal Year 2028 to pay for 90 F-35C Joint Strike Fighters.

Historically, advanced stealth aircraft programs have been very expensive. For example, the final estimated total research and development cost for the U.S. Air Force's F-22 Raptor was approximately $32.4 billion in 2010 dollars, or nearly $45 billion in today's dollars, adjusted for inflation. The F-22's Engineering and Manufacturing Development (EMD) phase also ran from August 1991 until December 2005.

The Air Force also is asking for just over $1.9 billion for elements of its own Next Generation Air Dominance (NGAD) program in Fiscal Year 2024, which includes work on a sixth-generation stealth combat jet, among other things.

Full article: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/b ... prototypes

[mixelflick]

Does anyone know how many F/A-XX the Navy proposes buying?

It seems to me the F-35C never reached critical mass with the Navy, although when you take the Marines F-35's into account its a different ball game. Even then though, it isn't a 1:1 replacement for Super Hornet's, correct? Or was that never the goal from the get go.

[ricnunes]

The US Navy goal was always to replace the Legacy Hornet with the F-35C and have the F-35C's operate alongside with the Super Hornets.
So the F-35C was never intended to replace the Super Hornet. But and in the meanwhile, it seems that some Super Hornets will indeed end up being replaced by F-35C's, which is IMO is very telling (of how 5th gen is far superior to 4th gen).

Like I said in another F/A-XX thread, I think/believe the F/A-XX will eventually be awarded to Boeing which is probably another reason why you won't probably see F-35C's fully replacing the Super Hornets but instead many of the Super Hornets will be replaced by the F/A-XX.

[Corsair1963]

The US Navy goal was always to replace the Legacy Hornet with the F-35C and have the F-35C's operate alongside with the Super Hornets.
So the F-35C was never intended to replace the Super Hornet. But and in the meanwhile, it seems that some Super Hornets will indeed end up being replaced by F-35C's, which is IMO is very telling (of how 5th gen is far superior to 4th gen).

Like I said in another F/A-XX thread, I think/believe the F/A-XX will eventually be awarded to Boeing which is probably another reason why you won't probably see F-35C's fully replacing the Super Hornets but instead many of the Super Hornets will be replaced by the F/A-XX.

While the original plan was to just replace the legacy Hornets with the F-35C. That has been expanded to include at least some Super Hornets as well. Now the exact mix will of course depend on when the F/A-XX (NGAD) arrives and how fast production ramps up?


Nonetheless, my guess is a good number of Super Hornets will be replaced with F-35Cs. As the NGAD isn't likely to arrive before 2040 and even then slowly.....

Lastly, as for the winner of the NGAD hard to say as all of the major players are viable options. (LM, Boeing, NG, etc.) Yet, if I had to put money in the game. I think I would go with "Northrop Grumman". (just saying)

[disconnectedradical]

US Air Force and US Navy both plan to order NGAD and F/A-XX by 2030, where is this 2040 coming from?

[charlielima223]

Im EXTREMELY SKEPTICAL with any timeline or dates about the NGAD. They have been keeping the NGAD very secret and close to the chest. All we have to go on are concept renderings and very generalized claims if not vague. Until something roles out of the hanger or they give something concrete instead of guess-timations than I'll give more credit. I think it is supposed to take proven tech and material from the B-21 and advance them a little further.

[Corsair1963]

US Air Force and US Navy both plan to order NGAD and F/A-XX by 2030, where is this 2040 coming from?

Really? It's 2023 and the USAF and USN haven't even selected a winning design! Hell, from what is publicly available they haven't even down selected the leading competitors. (think YF-22/YF-23 & X-32/X-35) Even when they do it will take "years" to build and test prototypes. These will require extensive flight testing.....and we all know how long that can take!

Just think today how advanced the F-35 is over existing types. Yet, the new 6th Generation Fighters will be another generational leap over the previous ones! Does anyone really think that is going to be a fast process?


Honestly, this endless discussion that the NGAD - F/A-XX will enter service around 2030 is just absurd....


"IMHO"

[ricnunes]

Like I said in another F/A-XX thread, I think/believe the F/A-XX will eventually be awarded to Boeing which is probably another reason why you won't probably see F-35C's fully replacing the Super Hornets but instead many of the Super Hornets will be replaced by the F/A-XX.

While the original plan was to just replace the legacy Hornets with the F-35C. That has been expanded to include at least some Super Hornets as well.

Yes, I mentioned something along those lines in my last post.

Lastly, as for the winner of the NGAD hard to say as all of the major players are viable options. (LM, Boeing, NG, etc.) Yet, if I had to put money in the game. I think I would go with "Northrop Grumman". (just saying)

By bet is:
- USAF NGAD --> LM
- US Navy F/A-XX --> Boeing
- B-21 --> As we already know, Northrop Grumman (NG).
This way, the workshare regarding future combat aircraft gets distributed among the 3 major US military aerospace companies.

I don't think that NG is in a position to build fighter aircraft. Heck, since 2000 that NG doesn't build any aircraft at all! And it's currently building the B-21 because it's the only company with the know-how to build B-2s and this to build the B-21 which is basically an improved albeit smaller B-2.

What I could see is NG becoming a secondary contractor for either NGAD, F/A-XX or both.

Really? It's 2023 and the USAF and USN haven't even selected a winning design! Hell, from what is publicly available they haven't even down selected the leading competitors. (think YF-22/YF-23 & X-32/X-35) Even when they do it will take "years" to build and test prototypes. These will require extensive flight testing.....and we all know how long that can take!

Yeah, I fully agree with this!

Just think today how advanced the F-35 is over existing types. Yet, the new 6th Generation Fighters will be another generational leap over the previous ones! Does anyone really think that is going to be a fast process?

I think that NGAD and F/A-XX will be "5th gen fighter aircraft" and not "6th gen" per se, unless maybe if the supersonic tailless design becomes a reality.
And even then, I think that systems-wise (sensors, avionics, etc...) they are probably in the same class and effectiveness as those of upgraded F-35s which could "cut some corners" but again, I have the same opinion as you: I doubt that we'll see NGADs and F/A-XXs in service during the 2030's.

[Corsair1963]

I think that NGAD and F/A-XX will be "5th gen fighter aircraft" and not "6th gen" per se, unless maybe if the supersonic tailless design becomes a reality.
And even then, I think that systems-wise (sensors, avionics, etc...) they are probably in the same class and effectiveness as those of upgraded F-35s which could "cut some corners" but again, I have the same opinion as you: I doubt that we'll see NGADs and F/A-XXs in service during the 2030's.

The US Military (USAF/USN) wouldn't waste their time and money to develop new Stealth Fighters. If, they weren't a generational leap over the existing F-22/F-35...


In short the NGAD and F/A-XX will be true 6th Generation Fighters. So, the US can maintain its technological superiority over "any" potential adversary!

[ricnunes]

The US Military (USAF/USN) wouldn't waste their time and money to develop new Stealth Fighters. If, they weren't a generational leap over the existing F-22/F-35...


In short the NGAD and F/A-XX will be true 6th Generation Fighters. So, the US can maintain its technological superiority over "any" potential adversary!

Being the same generation doesn't necessarily mean having the same capability.

For instance the (Legacy) F/A-18 is more advanced than the Mirage 2000 but both aircraft are from the same generation (4th gen).
Super Hornet is more advanced than the (Legacy) F/A-18 but both are from the same generation - 4th gen - although some consider the Super Hornet to be 4.5th gen (4th gen still the same). The same applies to the Rafale compared to the Mirage 2000. And so on...

The F-35 is more advanced than the J-20 but and yet both are 5th gen fighter aircraft. As such there's nothing that prevents for example NGAD being more advanced and capable than the F-35 and yet still belong to the same generation (5th gen).
It seems that what's expected from NGAD compared to existing stealth fighter aircraft, namely the F-35 is better/superior range. Of course it's also expected that NGAD will also have for example better sensors since and afterall it will be a newer aircraft.

Regarding F/A-XX, I think it could follow a similar suite as NGAD but this is yet to be seen.

By the way, all the above applies in case NGAD and/or F/A-XX won't be supersonic tailless aircraft (and thus having a more conventional design). But if they become supersonic tailless aircraft as predicted than this could warrant them to belong to a new generation (6th gen).

[charlielima223]

Being the same generation doesn't necessarily mean having the same capability.

For instance the (Legacy) F/A-18 is more advanced than the Mirage 2000 but both aircraft are from the same generation (4th gen).
Super Hornet is more advanced than the (Legacy) F/A-18 but both are from the same generation - 4th gen - although some consider the Super Hornet to be 4.5th gen (4th gen still the same). The same applies to the Rafale compared to the Mirage 2000. And so on...

The F-35 is more advanced than the J-20 but and yet both are 5th gen fighter aircraft. As such there's nothing that prevents for example NGAD being more advanced and capable than the F-35 and yet still belong to the same generation (5th gen).
It seems that what's expected from NGAD compared to existing stealth fighter aircraft, namely the F-35 is better/superior range. Of course it's also expected that NGAD will also have for example better sensors since and afterall it will be a newer aircraft.

Regarding F/A-XX, I think it could follow a similar suite as NGAD but this is yet to be seen.

By the way, all the above applies in case NGAD and/or F/A-XX won't be supersonic tailless aircraft (and thus having a more conventional design). But if they become supersonic tailless aircraft as predicted than this could warrant them to belong to a new generation (6th gen).

Nobody outside those programs and projects really knows. All us peons on the outside have are bits and pieces of general info along with a lot of guessing. No doubt 6th gen aircraft will be stealthy but one thing I keep hearing and reading about is that those aircraft will be even more stealthy than current 5th gen aircraft (that is a very tall order to to fill). In what ways and how is still being talked about. Another thing we are seeing and hearing is more levels of automating and teaming. Not just teaming but also commanding ground launched UAVs but maybe also having its own small number of air launched vehicles as well. There are plenty of developing technologies and tactics that are out there that is known and unknown. Because of all the unknowns I remain skeptical of any claim of such 6th gen aircraft coming out at a estimated date or timeline. Until they rollout some kind of technology demonstrator out of a hanger to the public than I wont take any of those release dates with any real seriousness.

[ricnunes]

Nobody outside those programs and projects really knows. All us peons on the outside have are bits and pieces of general info along with a lot of guessing.

Yes, you're absolutely right. What we are all doing here is taking our best guesses.

No doubt 6th gen aircraft will be stealthy but one thing I keep hearing and reading about is that those aircraft will be even more stealthy than current 5th gen aircraft (that is a very tall order to to fill).

Yes, and I believe that the same/similar rumours/sources state this because such "6th aircraft" will or should be tailless which is a source of (added) RCS.

Because of all the unknowns I remain skeptical of any claim of such 6th gen aircraft coming out at a estimated date or timeline. Until they rollout some kind of technology demonstrator out of a hanger to the public than I wont take any of those release dates with any real seriousness.

I fully agree with you above. I would say/guess that a "supersonic tailless" design will alone be a major technological hurdle for such new generation of fighter aircraft. And then there's all the other technological hurdles...

[secretsquirrel]

I was surprised when the CNO mentioned the "acquisition" of the F/A-XX in the late 2020s. I took it to mean the procurement of production representative airframes. It could also mean the start of the program, but the F/A-XX has already started. It is supposedly in the concept development stage. I'd be curious to hear other opinions. Rep. Rob Wittman has said that the Navy's NGAD program is behind the Air Force's.

It is likely that the F/A-XX will be very similar the Air Force's NGAD platform. At the very least it will use the same engines, possess broadband low observability, have a similar planform and combat radius.

Here us where the Navy's NGAD might differ.

1. It might be smaller. Carrier wings have had larger aircraft previously such as the RA-5 and A-3. But Navy may want to limit the spot factor so carriers can accommodate more aircraft.

2. The F-35C had larger wings to improve the F-35's handling characteristics when landing aboard the carrier. I wonder if compromises will need to be made with the planform? Or do the landing aids such as Delta Flight Path give engineers some leeway with the design?

[Corsair1963]

The Naval NGAD is said to be way behind the Air Force NGAD in development. This while the engines won't reach the prototype (construction) before 2032 and that is likely optimistic.....(very)