General F/A-XX thread

[emobirb]

YouTube videos and sites like "The Aviationist" or "The War Zone" aren't credible, I'm sorry for you.

And you came here just to enlighten us all, poor souls, your highness of the absolute truth and credibility"

More or less, like I do in the H-20 thread for example. After all y'all are clearly starved for some decent PLA OSINT

[ricnunes]

More or less, like I do in the H-20 thread for example. After all y'all are clearly starved for some decent PLA OSINT

Yeah right.
I've seen some alternative names to "Troll" but "starved for some decent PLA OSINT" is definitely, a first

[emobirb]

More or less, like I do in the H-20 thread for example. After all y'all are clearly starved for some decent PLA OSINT

Yeah right.
I've seen some alternative names to "Troll" but "starved for some decent PLA OSINT" is definitely, a first

If that's how you perceive the world around you, I wouldn't even be surprised if you had trouble spelling "PLA".

[ricnunes]

If that's how you perceive the world around you, I wouldn't even be surprised if you had trouble spelling "PLA".

And I wouldn't be surprised if you always needed a translator to type everything you posted here in this forum.

[zaltys]

You believe the J-36 is a bomber, despite every single credible source saying that this is a ridiculous assumption. So what you believe and what is actual fact are seemingly two very different things.

Please look at the mirror with these comments.

Every single credible source estimates that it's a bomber.

What clueless fanboys say - that is irrelevant.

YouTube videos and sites like "The Aviationist" or "The War Zone" aren't credible, I'm sorry for you.

But when you misidentifying a next generation multirole combat aircraft as a bomber makes you sleep at night, so be it x)

I personally prefer to stick to information closer to the source.

Sure, completely independent, unbiased, not controlled Chinese sources can be trusted.

[emobirb]

Sure, completely independent, unbiased, not controlled Chinese sources can be trusted.

I fail to see how academic papers dealing with hard numbers and clear cut requirements and concepts are "biased".

Furthermore plenty of, quite frankly, more credible people on the SPF and SDF forum respectively have far more faith into the numbers provided by said academic papers and the words of the people working on the project. Than in some half baked, poorly informed american publications.

If only US intermediate and long range strike muntion stockpiles were as deep as the copium stockpiles of US avgeeks online...

[zaltys]

Sure, completely independent, unbiased, not controlled Chinese sources can be trusted.

I fail to see how academic papers dealing with hard numbers and clear cut requirements and concepts are "biased".

Furthermore plenty of, quite frankly, more credible people on the SPF and SDF forum respectively have far more faith into the numbers provided by said academic papers and the words of the people working on the project. Than in some half baked, poorly informed american publications.

If only US intermediate and long range strike muntion stockpiles were as deep as the copium stockpiles of US avgeeks online...

You don't have to be a US avgeek, in order not to trust Chinese sources. And I've lived in authoritarian state and know that often an academic paper from an authoritarian state can be no different from a propaganda paper.
That being said, I find it really incredible how inefficient US government and aviation industry are...

[madrat]

Inefficiency to sustain long term knowledge is much different than economic hemhorages the Russians have been prone to self suffer. I do not underestimate the Chinese developments. They are not wasting military resources and learned to listen abroad to tackle technical challenges.

[ricnunes]

I do not underestimate the Chinese developments. They are not wasting military resources and learned to listen abroad to tackle technical challenges.

While I also don't underestimate the Chinese developments, it's not true that China "isn't wasting military resources and learned to listen abroad to tackle technical challenges". For example, it's well known that the Chinese military complex and structures are riddled with corruption!
https://thediplomat.com/2024/12/can-chi ... -military/

Of course we don't read or know much about Chinese military "inefficiencies" and failures because China is a dictatorship which strictly controls information flow and even discourages individual thinking, which again is why emobirb's posts that "Chinese OSINT here, Chinese OSINT there and everyone in the West is wrong" is in the best case scenario ridiculous and a trolling behaviour. In the worse case scenario - and honestly I believe in this - we might be facing some misinformation campaign here which of course wouldn't be the first time (not even by a long shot!).
This of course means that zaltys is 100% correct when he says that Chinese sources are not to be trusted!

And because of how China is and works, information like the one above about Chinese military corruption is very rare to get and is most likely only the tip of the iceberg and there's way, way more that we don't know about.

[milosh]

Which big military don't have problem with corruption?

Btw corruption in military doesn't have much with that Chinese fly two tailless stealth fighters no so long ago. In fact if someone have healthy fighter industry it is China.

America? Fighter maker is Lockheed Martin which don't have any reason to do better then Boeing is in self destruction mode.

Russia? Even worse, there is only Sukhoi. MiG is dead.

[ricnunes]

Which big military don't have problem with corruption?

It seems you haven't read the article that I shared in my last post. We're are talking about major corruption or "institutionalized corruption" which includes cases of luxury properties both in China and internationally owned by the relatives of the highest-ranking PLA officers, officers (and not only) having to bribe someone in order to get promoted and even basic enlistment requires bribes together with a central government incapable of dealing with this corruption! This is actually not much different from and in level with what happens in Russia.

So NO, big western military don't have this level of corruption. Not even close!

Btw corruption in military doesn't have much with that Chinese fly two tailless stealth fighters no so long ago. In fact if someone have healthy fighter industry it is China.

With such level of brutal corruption something will (negatively) give in. It might be that the number of planned equipment (aircraft, ships, weapons, etc...) isn't actually built since funds get deviated from military budgets (often happens in Russia, for example) or that the equipment doesn't actually have the desired capabilities among other deficiencies (also because funds get deviated from military budgets, etc...) but we won't know this from countries like China until such equipment gets "battle tested".

Besides, I see too much people jumping into conclusions with these designs (such as being bomber-sized super-fighters, Mach 2.5 or even Mach 3 capable, hyperdrives, etc... - joking about the hyperdrives, BTW) but the FACT is that these aircraft are only demonstrators or at best, very early prototypes. They are still very far from being actual combat-capable aircraft.

America? Fighter maker is Lockheed Martin which don't have any reason to do better then Boeing is in self destruction mode.

Russia? Even worse, there is only Sukhoi. MiG is dead.

Since ALL the three (3) Chinese companies belong to the same owner, the Chinese government which is represented by a shell corporation named Aviation Industry Corporation of China or AVIC, we can hardly say that there's actual competition in this sector (and not only) in China.

[emobirb]

It would be naive to assume that there is a single military in the world that's free of corruption. Generally the larger the military and the bigger the sums the more corrupt they become, one only has to look towards the US, Russia, China, the UK, India etc.

However I have to admit, it really does amuse me that you trust Chinese information when it benefits your narrative.

:: Edited by moderator ::

[ricnunes]

It would be naive to assume that there is a single military in the world that's free of corruption.

I never said that that there were militaries around the world completely imune to corruption. But the level of corruption that may affect many western countries (fortunately) doesn't compare of come close to the the level of corruption of countries like China or Russia.

Generally the larger the military and the bigger the sums the more corrupt they become, one only has to look towards the US, Russia, China, the UK, India etc.

I don't agree. Again any corruption that MIGHT happen in the US or UK militaries wouldn't compare or come even remotely close to the level of corruption in Russia, China or India.

:: Edited by moderator ::

[milosh]

@ricnunes

Corruption in Russian military is almost always connected with private enterprises and for smaller things, like uniforms, tires or food. This is where you can have big corruption, but when it is about getting fighters or some other weapon system for state owned enterprise, space for corruption is almost nonexistent, because you can't make money.

China same deal. I think one of best known cases of corruption were food and fuel. Procurement general had deal with private enterprise to fake delivery papers.

In case of America, you don't have such corruption in military but you have it in MIC. Massive lobbing machinery, possition in board of directors for retired officials and also political interest, but biggest problem is lack of competition.

Chinese have CAC and SAC, and while both are state owned they do compete with each other and both are making stealths! I mean MiG, Yak, Sukhoi they all were state owned in USSR but they compete hard with each other. In rocket and SAM industry competition was even bigger.

In America it is really problem to create competition. Lockheed is alpha and omega for stealth fighters, Northrop is alpha and omega for stealth bombers. And that is it.

If state nationalize Boeing, and divide it in two companies (military and civilian program) military one could become competitor to both big player BUT that will not happen because of MIC. First Boeing will against it, why wouldn't if they go bailout any time they need one.

And to be frank all this isn't that relevant.

We have situation that China is making ~100 J-20 per year, that China will start making J-35 soon, that China fly off prototypes of tailless stealth fighter and fighter-bomber.

So it look like that if something drastical don't change in US and soon, China will be dominant air power in 2030s.

[ricnunes]

@milosh

Which part of "corruption also happens in western countries like the USA BUT it is NOT at the same level as with China" didn't you comprehend?

Sometimes it's a bit frustrating to try to argue with you since sometimes you simply chose to ignore facts that are given to you.

• For example, you don't have US military personnel using bribes to get promoted like in China (something you simply ignored)!
• You don't have relatives of US highest ranking building or buying luxury properties all over the world (something you simply ignored)!
• As far as I know you don't have people using bribes in order to get enlisted (something you simply ignored).

And again, this is only the tip of the iceberg of what we know in China.

In America it is really problem to create competition. Lockheed is alpha and omega for stealth fighters, Northrop is alpha and omega for stealth bombers. And that is it.

If state nationalize Boeing, and divide it in two companies (military and civilian program) military one could become competitor to both big player BUT that will not happen because of MIC. First Boeing will against it, why wouldn't if they go bailout any time they need one.

It's funny that you come up with this since CAC is so far the only manufacturer of 5th gen stealth fighter aircraft in China (J-35 is still in development) just like LM in the USA and where SAC basically manufactures 4th gen fighter aircraft whose base design was designed by someone else - I'm talking about the Flanker Chinese variant aircraft (J-11, J-15, J-16) - just like Boeing in the USA.

On top of this, we still don't know who in the USA is going to develop and build NGAD.