General F/A-XX thread

[madrat]

I hope NGAD is so effective it's boring.

[disconnectedradical]

An AvWeek article from a few weeks ago that is currently free to read. The parts that I think are interesting:

U.S. Navy Carves Independent Path For Future Fighter Design
8 November 2024

In the past decade, however, propulsion plans for the Air Force and Navy have diverged, Donnelly says. The Air Force continues to develop Next-​Generation Adaptive Propulsion (NGAP), the only one of five new technologies confirmed to be funded by the NGAD program. But the industry proposals submitted for the F/A-XX contract are based on older engines that lack the variable bypass flow of adaptive engines.

“We’re looking at more of a derivative-type engine solution,” Donnelly says. “That’s just one example where we probably are different in many ways from the Air Force. In totality, they are two unique programs from an acquisition point of view and also going forward, so we’re relatively independent of each other at this point.”

Full article: https://aviationweek.com/defense/aircra ... ter-design

To avoid taking other thread off topic and continue discussion from spurts.

I think the engine being a derivative is fine, if the engine is spec’s properly from the beginning and not treated as kind of interim, like the TF30 was for the F-14. So more like the F100 for the F-16. I think it also helps that we now have an engine in that thrust and weight class that’s already pretty established in terms of reliability.

In the end F/A-XX may end up being a lower risk “5.5 gen” multirole fighter compared to the more ambitious NGAD, but for USN it may make sense given the schedule and budget realities. Especially with other modernization programs taking up a lot of money, like Columbia SSBN, DDG(X), SSN(X), etc. So F/A-XX something that’s larger and more capable at about 40,000 lbs empty (think F-14 size) compared to Super Hornet and F-35C at about 32,000-34,000 lbs, for more payload and range, while not being overly risky. Maybe sized to carry a pair of JASSM or LRASM internally. So incremental improvement, but might be enough for what USN wants.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

I agree with that.

[disconnectedradical]

https://www.twz.com/sea/carrier-air-win ... ut-by-navy

In terms of penetrating platforms for future carrier air wings, the Navy is pushing ahead with plans for a new sixth-generation crewed stealth combat jet, referred to currently as F/A-XX. The service said last October that it was getting close to picking a winning F/A-XX design and the hope is that the first examples will begin entering service in the 2030s.

F/A-XX is set to replace the F/A-18E/F and the EA-18G, but both of those existing aircraft are currently expected to continue serving into the 2040s. F-35C Joint Strike Fighters, E-2 Hawkeyes, CMV-22 Osprey tilt-rotors, and MH-60 Seahawk helicopters are also set to remain parts of the Navy’s carrier air wings for years to come.

[madrat]

The only way to keep CVNs relevant is to increase aircraft size imho. May as well target 50k-60k pounds.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

You start running into limits of carrier ability to launch and recover. The Tomcat was, IIRC, the heaviest plane to use CATOBAR operations at 44klb empty and 72klb gross, and it had the benefit of a wide straight wing giving it lower minimum flying speeds than planes much lighter than itself, helping to reduce loads on both the Cats and the Cables.

[basher54321]

Didn't imagine the Turkey was heavier than the Whale.

and yet max cat launch weight shows about 1000lbs more for the F-14D over the EA-3B.

[quicksilver]

Grumman Ironworks

[ricnunes]

Grumman Ironworks

Or, Grumman Leadworks

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

Tom's Cat was a beast. Until it is selected otherwise, the F/A-XX will be the Northrop Grumman F/A-28 Thundercat in my headcannon.

[Corsair1963]

The only way to keep CVNs relevant is to increase aircraft size imho. May as well target 50k-60k pounds.

The USN is doing just that with the F-35C engine upgrade, MQ-25A Stealth Tanker, F/A-XX. etc.

[disconnectedradical]

Lockheed Martin has been eliminated from F/A-XX, leaving just Northrop Grumman and Boeing.

Lockheed out of Navy’s F/A-XX future fighter program
A source with knowledge of the program told Breaking Defense that Lockheed submitted a bid for the next-gen fighter effort, but the proposal did not satisfy the Navy’s criteria, leaving Boeing and Northrop Grumman as the remaining competitors.

AFA WARFARE 2025 — Lockheed Martin is out of the running for the Navy’s sixth-generation fighter jet program, known as Next Generation Air Dominance or F/A-XX, Breaking Defense has learned.

A source with knowledge of the program told Breaking Defense that Lockheed submitted a bid to the Navy, but the proposal did not satisfy the service’s criteria. The company is now no longer proceeding with the bid. The Navy previously told Breaking Defense in November that the service was evaluating proposals, but it is unclear when Lockheed was knocked out of the competition.

The outcome leaves a horse race between Northrop Grumman and Boeing to replace the venerable F/A-18 and E/A-18 with a new air superiority fighter. At stake for Northrop is its first fighter contract since the F-14 Tomcat, famed for its appearance in the original Top Gun movie; at stake for Boeing is the future of its fighter arm, which has seen a massive investment in its St. Louis facility on a gamble that the company will win a sixth-gen contract from the US military.

Lockheed referred a request for comment to the Navy. The Navy did not respond to requests for comment by deadline.

Lockheed, which cornered the market on fifth-generation fighters through its ubiquitous F-35 Joint Strike Fighter and the F-22 Raptor, still has a shot to build a sixth-generation jet through the Air Force’s separate fighter competition, also known as Next Generation Air Dominance, where the company is facing off against Boeing.

[...]

Navy officials have publicly remained committed to awarding an F/A-XX contract this year, a contrast with the Air Force, which put its NGAD program on hold last year as it assessed the program. The Air Force conducted an internal analysis last year, which supported the development and fielding of a manned sixth generation fighter, but officials punted a decision on whether to continue the program to the Trump administration.

[...]

Full article: https://breakingdefense.com/2025/03/exc ... r-program/

Hopefully the bean counters at DOGE don't try to cancel this.

[talkitron]

As a minor quibble, DOGE isn't reviewing weapons programs as of yet. It may be working on reducing the civilian workforce at the DoD. The 8% reallocation in spending is being directed by the president of secretary of defense.

[nike77]

I hope Northrop Grumman gets picked to produce the NGAD.

Boeing will screw it up with their trademark incompetence.