Made to Evade: The F-35's Unrivaled Stealth

[ricnunes]

Quite possible, but this make the airframe to airframe comparison almost impossible unless this feature has been turned off so you have a fixed gain.

Also, you have to control for what the various aircraft have been doing just prior. Was this on initial taxi, had the plane been sitting out in the open or under a sun shade, just landed after a high speed low altitude dash or been flying CAP loitering subsonic at 30K. All those things that would change the heat soak, surface temp, and engine heat generation

Yes indeed!

That's also why I tend to agree with hornetfinn for example that these FLIR videos are definitely NOT a definitive evidence regarding IR signature comparison.
But and nonetheless they are fun to watch

[ricnunes]

So you demand that fuel tanks cover up more of the F-35 engines based on pictures, but when your statements are challenged you demand that we measure it to prove you wrong? Even visually, the rear fuel tanks on the F-22 and F-35 are about comparable height.

It's you who came up with with the statement that the rear fuel tanks of the F-22 are bigger than the F-35 ones as a sort of counter-argument of mine that the F-35 fuel tanks cover the engine more than the F-22 fuel tanks cover their engines (note: plural) and you even came up with an actual length measure for both aircraft's rear tanks for which I asked you for evidence for such measures as well as for the other missing measures (width and height).

Anyway, even if you're right about the real fuel tank measurements this doesn't contradict what I said because the F-35 is actually smaller than the F-22 and this way a smaller tank in the F-35 could cover more than a larger one in the F-22.

The F-22's engines are definitely not just up against the skin like the F-16 is, there's quite a bit of fuselage underneath it if you just look at how it tapers to the nozzles, a side view of the aircraft is quite evident. I'm not saying it's better or worse than the F-35, but to just consider the F-35 flat out superior is not something backed by evidence, just conjecture.

So here's the thing, if you're going to declare something to be superior, then it should have solid evidence and not just speculation, like more fuel tanks surrounding the engines (not proven and largely irrelevant because of where the hot parts of the engine is). Both F-22 and F-35 obviously use methods to reduce IR signature, but you and I don't know enough to declare one to be superior to another.

Saying the "the F-35 IR signature is superior to the F-22" is your own words not mine!
AGAIN, what I said was that the F-35 has a feature (engine better buried inside the fuselage) which COULD grant it better IR signature (than the F-22) but I never said that with a 100% confidence even because I also said that the "F-22 (also) has extensive IR reduction measures".

The only fighter or prototype that I can confidently say is better for IR stealth is the YF-23 especially when viewed from the bottom, although likely not when viewed from above.

I wouldn't be so confident about that...

[hornetfinn]

All modern fighter aircraft seem to have some infrared signature reduction measures. Most usual and easy to spot feature are the ceramic tiles over the exhaust nozzle. Of course most of the features and structures are inside the aircraft and it's pretty much impossible to guess how much these affect the heat signature. I think that difference in IR signature between F-35, F-22 and 4+ gen Western fighters isn't very large at least compared to their comparative radar signatures. Of course every little bit helps in combat situations and it seems that F-35 and F-22 have the most extensive IR reduction measures.

[charlielima223]

And it's actually you (and charlielima223) who gets extremely defensive every single time when someone says that the F-35 may be better at something than the F-22! You really need to look yourself at the mirror when making "accusations" like that...

Neither I or disconnectedradical was claiming the F-22 superior yet rather was trying to provide greater context to a very broad claim by LM you specifically highlighted and made a thread for. The closest thing to me saying the F-22 was better in this regard as which had a more visable nozzle at the back end when viewed directly from the side. That however would be next to useless in the main context of this discussion. As I have said earlier I do not doubt that the F-35 has extensive IR reducing features/designs, I just wanted more context than just a simple claim. Given the fact that F-22 and F-35 are made by the same manufacturer, would it not be too much of a stretch that proven designs and features used on an older design (F-22) be used on the newer one (F-35)? So me claiming that nothing F-35 has isnt seen on other aircraft.

Also regarding disconnectedradical opinion of the YF-23... I would tend to agree based purely on what can be visually observed. The YF-23 uses a trench to help mask its exhaust as viewed from the bottom, the same as the B-2...






we havent seen the back end of the B-21 but I would make a safe bet that it would have a similar feature to the B-2. Reinforcing what I said earlier about a company using proven designs, all 3 aircraft were/are designed by Northrop Grumman.

[hornetfinn]

Interesting short video with some very close-up shots of F-35:

https://twitter.com/thef35/status/1891457798610866466